0:04
Shanie Zimerman
All right. Hello everybody and thank you for joining us in our 16th episode of the from the Expert series.
0:13
Hana Jacover
I'm Shani.
0:14
Shanie Zimerman
I manage Strategic Partners over here at Oktopost. And joining me today are Hana Jacobar, director of Demand Generation over at Madcudu. This is where I always. Hey, Hana.
0:26
Colin Day
Hi.
0:27
Shanie Zimerman
Thanks for having me. Of course. And we also have Colin Day, Oktopost managing Director over at AMIA and Apac. And I'm really excited. Hey, Colin. I'm very excited for today's conversation. This is a topic near and dear, I think, to all of our hearts and something that everyone can learn a little bit more of. We're talking about all things authenticity and bringing authenticity to the workplace, to marketing and beyond. Very quickly, a bit of a personal announcement. In case you missed this in the first, you know, 30 seconds of this call, this will actually be the last webinar that I will be hosting before heading out on maternity leave in a couple of weeks. But fear not, the webinar series will continue a bit of a revamp under a different name and it's going to be run by my colleague Jen Goodman, who you may be familiar with from our podcast series. Also our director of social strategy over here at Oktopost. So you are in great hands. And she's picking this up just on schedule. So starting end of June, this series, again just under a different name, is going to continue to run as usual and I'll look forward to seeing you all back in a few months time. Just as a very quick reminder, everyone is on mute. If you have any questions at all, there's a chat box, there's a Q box. You can feel free to drop your questions right in there and we'll have time at the end of the webinar to get to those without further ado. Hannah, thank you again for joining us today. You're on vacation. I just want everyone to know that Hanna's on vacation right now and she is so sweet and so kind to join us from the beautiful Oregon coast. Let's talk a little bit about how we can communicate authenticity through our content and also our personal interactions.
2:21
Hana Jacover
Yeah, such an important topic that I'm so excited to talk about today. So thank you for having me. And I think that like we can't even get to that point until we do some like level setting on why we struggle with authenticity in the first place. And like some, it's so obvious, at least to me and I hope to other people too, and probably more so for like this younger generation that is kind of having this like Aha. Moment. But we're constantly told, even as young kids not to do this. Don't be that. Be careful of this. And conditioned. And put in these boxes that really stifle our creativity and our authenticity. And we move through that in life and that constant guardrails that we don't necessarily need. And then as adults, we're convinced that it's our fault something's wrong with us because we can't bring our full selves. We don't feel like our full selves. So we go about our lives trying to get back to this version of ourselves that, like, we feel is authentic and have a really hard time doing that. So I think that, you know, before we can even talk about, well, how do we bring authenticity into work and communications when it comes to marketing, we really have to look within and acknowledge where we're at in our own journey and also acknowledge the. And embrace, really, the intersectionality of why we are where we are. We can no longer separate personal and work life if we want to talk about authenticity, because something that happened to you 20 years ago impacts how you're going to show up in the boardroom tomorrow. You know, and a personal issue is just not confined to your personal life because you don't leave pieces of yourself. You know, as you move through the world, you have to take it all with you. And so I think that. Oh, go ahead. No, no, no.
4:20
Shanie Zimerman
I was just gonna say, you know, that I think that you're absolutely right. And I. And I wanted to also question this. If there's the being, like, overly authentic, if there's trying to make up for authenticity that, you know, that might not come so naturally, if there's that risk of, like, am I trying too hard now to be authentic? Because I can't find that from within. You know what I mean?
4:46
Colin Day
Yeah. Well, that comes down to credibility, really. Right, Shani? So, you know, if you think about authenticity, I'd really bucket into four elements. Right? There's a continuity element. Right. And a consistency element. There's a credibility and integrity element. And then there's symbolism. Right? What do I stand for? Right? And I think that's what Hannah's really been talking to, is the element about what do I stand for? And how have my past activities shaped and molded and crafted who I am today? I mean, my parents telling me that the Easter Bunny wasn't real or the Tooth Fairy wasn't real. Slacker. Really dented my world.
5:28
Hana Jacover
Scarred you for life, right?
5:29
Colin Day
It scarred me for life.
5:31
Shanie Zimerman
Did they tell you about Santa?
5:33
Colin Day
Yeah. Yeah. And I've only just learned that. And I'm 50 years old, Shanice. Like, so, you know, I got through most of life with that one, but I'm not sure my kids will ever forgive me for it. But you're right, Hannah. Right. It's like, you know, even if you look at those aspects and we joke about them, but that's the starting of shaping us, of shaping our own personal brands. Right. And our integrity, like, you know, going forward, all of those life experiences, whether they be, know what we're joking about at a very young age, right through to what happened to us out on the streets like five or ten minutes ago. Right. All of that comes into us, the individuals, and then we bring that into the workspace and the workplace. Yeah. And that's then what we bring to the way that we build the brand and the brand authenticity and intent.
6:30
Hana Jacover
Yeah. And we want to use that like our experiences, our lived experiences and all of the different versions of ourselves that we have collected and evaluated throughout our lives, we want to use that as fuel. But when you step into a place where it's not allowed or it's not encouraged, it becomes really difficult. And I think, too, in our industry, specifically in B2B, like, B2B is so boring. So boring. And somebody told us that, like, we can only be boring. So naturally, like, we're going to. Then again, here we are being stifled and put into a box and given these guardrails, and we say, oh, okay, well, the person before me said, this is how it has to be. So this is how it has to be. And it doesn't matter what I think personally or how I can, you know, brighten it up a little. We're going to stick to the best practices. So we're best practice obsessed, which is good. But it is also such a downfall, it's our detriment. Because if you're doing something differently, it's likely not considered to be best practice, therefore, it's likely not encouraged. And we're really just kind of asking, like, what? But why not? You know, you can't. You can't measure everything with best practices. Like, there are some things that you just can't measure, and you just have to kind of trust your gut. I believe so much in intuition and bringing that to the table among creativity as well. So there's a way that we can infuse these things where we can still see what works, what doesn't. But we don't have to be so obsessed with these guard rails that actually act as Blinders, then we can really say, all right, I understand what I want to communicate, but now I can use my own personal experiences and my voice and, and values and communicate it in a way that this authenticity kind of radiates out. And that's how we get to a point where you're looking within, you're acknowledging that you're in a space that can, a safe space that can really nurture that and then you also can communicate it out. But I also think too skills wise, I think you have to be an excellent communicator. I think that you need to. Every marketer should take a writing class. Every marketer should be taking communication classes and understanding how they communicate what works for them. Because that is really. And for me personally too, like, that's how I found my voice is really trying a bunch of different things around, okay. I think my personality is this. And so therefore this might be the best way for me to communicate how I'm feeling, how I want to express my values and my opinions. And I think that that's really, really critical for marketers to understand and to be able to then bring that into. Bring the authenticity, Authenticity out.
9:29
Colin Day
That really comes out though, through stories, right? Hannah, in so much as. Look, we all going back to our childhoods like, again, right. We all love a story, right. As human beings, right. So, you know, the way to connect from an authentic perspective, right. From a, from a brand is to be able to tell a real story, right. And you know, it needs to be real, right. Otherwise it becomes boring. Right? And that's that boring factor that you mentioned, right? So, you know, boring stories won't attract and retain readers, right. But authentic ones certainly will.
10:08
Hana Jacover
And it's not to say too that like, in order to have this authentic voice, you have to be exciting and happy and thrilling. It helps.
10:18
Shanie Zimerman
It helps for sure.
10:19
Hana Jacover
But there are varying ways of bringing authenticity to the table. It can look like. It can look very emotional, it can look very caring, it can look very empathetic. So it doesn't always have to be this big event. Big. Yes, exactly. It can be subtle. And so I think sometimes people don't understand. Like if I and Shani, this is kind of what you were saying earlier. Like, I have to be this grandiose, you know, big personality. But you can do that in subtle ways as well, in your own way,
10:55
Shanie Zimerman
in the way that is. Is. Is you at the end of the day, not, you know, not what's expected of you and not what you think others want to see. But that's the, that's the relatable part of it. And that's where you know, someone out there, likely more than that one person, is going to be able to relate to your story the way that you're telling it.
11:16
Colin Day
And Hannah, that's all about becoming a trusted expert in your field. Right. Whether it's us as individuals. Right. Or whether it's the brand. One would hope from a brand perspective, you know, your, the organization you're working for is, you know, a leader in its field or trying to, trying to get there. Otherwise, you know, what are we all doing? Right. But you know, as an individual and as an individual contributor to that brand and to that brand's authenticity. Yeah. I need to, to be able to be seen. Yeah. As a trusted expert in the particular field that I'm planning, would you agree with that?
11:53
Hana Jacover
Absolutely. And I think that taking that even further, trust, like, where does that come from? That comes from building relationships. Right. So if you have that trust, that means that you've built a relationship and you've spent, spent time with somebody, whether it be one person on your team or your customers. And you're truly putting your ego aside because when you are comfortable with yourself and comfortable with who you are, you're not so concerned about your ego. And it allows you to build more powerful relationships that, where you're listening, you're listening a little bit better, you're seeing that person a little bit better and you're kind of like, you're really just understanding them and you're being more empathetic. So when you can build those relationships, you have that trust and then you can have that credibility. And then again, like, you can build those relationships internally with your. If you're on the marketing team, you need to build that relationship with sales, you need to build that relationship with customer success, you need to build that relationship with your customers. And likewise, you know, thinking about at the top level, if you're an executive, if you're a C level, like, you really need to build that relationship with your team so they trust you and that you are showcasing that this is a place for them to arrive as themselves
13:10
Shanie Zimerman
and promote that. So let's dive into this. Oh, there we go. That actually brings us into the next conversation of bringing it from that top down and how we can really incorporate the company values into also internal messaging and comms, but also that external and how we're delivering our messaging to customers and prospects alike.
13:37
Colin Day
Consistency. Consistency. Consistency.
13:41
Shanie Zimerman
Yeah, the three Cs.
13:43
Hana Jacover
The three Cs. And I, I think, and Colin you sort of went here too. But, like, talking about individual contributors, like, it's always like, why can't my team be more authentic? Like, why? Like, how can I get my team to be more authentic? Which, like, I'm going to call BS on that because that's way too much onus on individual contributors. When who has the power, who has the protection, who can take on the risk? It's certainly not in comparison to others in the organization, an individual contributor. So that's why it is so critical that this is a responsibility of leaders. You can't just show up one day and ask people to be more authentic. You need to really take that on yourself. So. So you are modeling and you are building that trusting relationship where people are like, okay, yes, I do feel like I can bring my full self to work. It's not just like a flip of a switch. Like, you have to really nurture that space. And a lot of leaders, I think, struggle with that. And I think that they want it to be easy and they want to build this, like, organic kind of culture around this, but they're not looking within first and they're not taking on the risk. So I think leaders need to take on much more risk, especially when we talk about. I mean, there's. We could have a whole webinar on asking black and brown individuals to bring their authentic self to work. Because that's like a whole other issue where it's really difficult. You know, it's really difficult if you are in an underrepresented group to bring your full self to work for many reasons. So I think that, you know, especially knowing the racial inequities and the balance of power in our industry, I think that's another reason why it's so critical that leaders kind of take on that responsibility. I'll also mention I could keep going,
15:49
Shanie Zimerman
first of all, always keep going. But I just have to agree that, you know, it does. It can't be the sole responsibility of an individual in the company or a single team in the company. It's the larger teamwork. It's. It's teamwork in the sense of, like the. This is the company acting as. As one single entity and one single team to really be on the same page and encourage each other to bring your. Your best self. And your best self is always going to be that most authentic self.
16:21
Hana Jacover
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like an ode to people that maybe don't have that. There's a lot of organizations that don't have that, and their leaders are not going to be Willing to do that. They'll be gone soon, don't worry. But, but, but if you are in that situation, if you're in that situation, you, you got to take risks, right? Like, you have to take risks. And I learned this early on in my career from one of my mentors and a dear friend of mine. And she always had, and I, and I have an agency background, so I, we're working with lots of. Building their demand gen engines nurtures things like that. And she had this mindset of, you know, sometimes you can't ask for permission, like ask for forgiveness.
17:10
Shanie Zimerman
Ask for forgiveness.
17:12
Hana Jacover
Yes, exactly. And I really watched this. I said, okay, let me see you do that. And she did. She showed me. And so then I learned to adopt it because sometimes it was really the only way that we could execute on these amazingly creative ideas and all of the hard work that kind of goes behind some of these foundational operational things that we set up. And not only that, like, we had to make really important, timely decisions and we wouldn't hear from our clients sometimes and we had to say, hey, now or never. And we just had to make a decision. And if we felt really good about it and we knew that they trusted us, we believed that it would be okay without, you know, the official stamp of approval. And I'm not saying just like send stuff out without asking or without having a plan. Like, it was a very strategic process. And it's just that very end point where you're like, okay, like we've come so far. I think we're ready to push this. And you know, guess what? Like, we never had to really beg for forgiveness. It was an approach that, because we felt so good about it, it was something we were willing to put our name behind and our reputation behind. And I think that's the key point. You can't just say, oh, I'm going to push this out the door, even though I don't feel good about it. It has to really feel good in order to kind of be okay with, hey, I made this executive decision and we feel it was the right thing to do. And kind of again, like, that just builds on that trust in that relationship.
18:47
Colin Day
Just picking up on that as well, right? So what you've done there, right, is you've established, you know, an easy way to communicate, right? It's like, because everyone knows what they get in, right? Like, so you've established a way to put the message out, right? You've, you've started that communication approach, which is, which is fantastic, right? That's the first step. Yeah. That people need to focus on. And then it's a case of how do I make it easy for the conversation to take place. Right. Because, you know, what we're trying to do is we're trying to. We're trying to get clients and customers and the ecosystem. Right. The tribe to engage with us. Right. And it needs to become a dialogue and a conversation. Right. And I think that's where you're coming from, if I may be putting words into your mouth. Right. But that's where I think you're coming from when you're talking about taking the risk side of things. Right. Because you've got to open yourself up, right? You first of all got to say something. It's got to come across as natural, and it's got to come across as authentic. It can't be, you know, it can't. Can't be stale and it can't be contrived. Right. It's got to come across. And then you're in. You're opening yourself up and you're inviting people to come back. Right. Especially if we're talking about social. Right. Like, you know, things can go viral very quickly. Right. And things that you're not even expecting to go viral can go very quickly. Right? So. So once you've got your story out there and once you've. You've got your mechanism to communicate externally. Yeah. You've got to be ready to receive it back in and do something, you know, with. With the message or the. The things that are coming back in. Would you. Would you agree with that philosophy and that approach?
20:29
Hana Jacover
Yeah, yeah, I do, completely. And I feel like it. You know, again, like, when you put your ego aside, when you're. When you feel like you are at peace with who you are and you're living in your truth, you can put your ego aside and you can do those things. You can receive and you can give a little bit more. And I think, too, how do we do this at an organizational level versus individual level, which it has to start at the individual level, but then as a group, we have to collectively develop these values that are really nurturing this mindset of authenticity. So if you are a leader, if you are a founder, you have to really think hard about these values that you want to attach to your company, because those are the values that then you're asking your employees to align with. And if they don't align with those values, they're not going to push out. You know, talk about your company in a way that aligns with who they Are. So when you can kind of get that perfect match of wow, I really can commit to these company values and I align with them so well. That's when you can start to see more of a personal voice coming out from your employees and really getting them to express those values in their own way in whatever role that they're in.
21:54
Shanie Zimerman
Don't mind me. I just segued while you were speaking about that because it ties perfectly with what the next thing that I wanted to speak about, which is how we can leverage those employees for a bit more of a human approach, which we always talk about here at Oktopost and an authentic approach to marketing. And I didn't want to cut you off, but when we were speaking the other day and I highlighted here, I bolded here the people pillar. And I would. It was just this concept that I just so very appreciated and connected with. I would love, Hannah, if you can touch on that people pillar. Again, I think it ties perfectly into just instilling those values, making sure that our employees are confident in themselves because that's eventually how they're going to be portraying our organization. Organization when they're speaking about our organization. Can you talk a little bit about that people pillar? Because I loved it so much.
22:49
Hana Jacover
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I have always viewed like an organization. They have these three pillars. They have the people pillar, they have the processes pillar, and they have the technology pillar. And you're constantly trying to bridge all of these gaps within these pillars. There might be different levels in them and different connecting points, but I 100% believe that this people pillar is the key to organizations success. And you know, you have to start there, right? Because we're all human and we all have these needs that need to be met. So we need to make sure that we're making sure that that pillar is very solid and foundationally before we can kind of move on to, okay, but then how do we make this pillar better? How do we make this pillar better? So I think it's really important that we think about, you know, are you investing in your employees? Are you giving them your time? Are you giving them the resources? Are you giving them empathy? Are you hiring people that also align with these things and you can expect from as well because it is kind of a give and take. So. So I think that when you focus on hiring the right people, which sometimes means looking at resumes and dropping your expectations around things that may be a little bit more traditional, like university, certain skills coming from a different industry, we need to stop thinking that those things are blockers to bringing on good people, because you can find really, really good people when you expand out a little bit more and broaden your expectations and really just kind of open. Be a little bit more open when
24:41
Shanie Zimerman
it comes to hiring and look beyond just a sheet of paper and look at an individual and understand who that individual is. And that's where you learn. You can't just make those decisions based on a Word document or a printed piece of paper because, you know, with their experience and their history, that's not. That's not real life.
25:03
Colin Day
Oh, sorry. Go on, Hannah.
25:05
Hana Jacover
Oh, I was just gonna say you have to look for those skills that really can't be taught and that are really evolved over, you know, lived experiences like communication. Yes, you can learn and you can practice, but it's really a skill that I think, in some ways can't be taught. You have to. Like, an individual is responsible for how they learn to communicate because you don't know what's going on in that brain of theirs. Like, that's a very powerful tool, and only you know how to use it. You can use. Leverage other people to sharpen that tool. But at the end of the day, you have to look for those skills where it's like, ooh, that person's got it.
25:45
Shanie Zimerman
You just.
25:45
Hana Jacover
You can't explain it, but they've just got it.
25:48
Colin Day
And guess what, Hannah, Everyone's a brand ambassador these days, right? It's like you look at someone's LinkedIn profile, they've got your company name on there, right? So, you know, just by having a LinkedIn profile, they're advertising your brand, right? It's like back in the day when. When I was cutting motif. Right. Like, Shani will tell you, that was many moons ago. Right. But. But, you know, back. Back in the day, like, you know, the first organization I worked for. Yeah. We weren't all brand ambassadors. Guess what? The Internet didn't even exist. Yeah, it's quite a new phenomenon, guys. But I'm showing my age. But no, back then, I mean, it's like, if we think about it, it's like, you know, the brand ambassador was a handful of individuals, right. That were media trained. Right? And, you know, when I say media trained, they were trained to go out in front of the press. You know, if you went to a trade publication and you had an interview with them, you could only go if you. And speak to them. If you even had someone from the PR team sit with you. Right. Or you'd been media trained. If you went out and did a TV interview. Yeah. You had to be media trained, right. You had to be able to utter the words, oh, I can't answer that. Like, I plead safe harbor. Right. It's like this day and age, everyone's a brand ambassador, and none of us are trained right. In how to communicate through social. But we're doing it day in, day out, as you say. Right. So some of those skills certainly can't be taught. But as organizations, as marketers, right, we need to be mindful of how do we equip our colleagues, how do we equip the.
27:32
Shanie Zimerman
And that's the right word. Training isn't the right word. It's equip. And how do we encourage and support, not necessarily train? Because there is something to be said about providing that knowledge and giving them the tool set that they need to be able to speak to the brand and this light and. And, you know, in the best light and correctly. But it's not training them, because I feel like training and maybe I need to fix my deck, but training, you know, we don't want to change anyone. We're not looking to adjust anyone. We're just looking to give them a skill set and a tool set to be themselves.
28:12
Colin Day
And a mindset, right?
28:13
Shanie Zimerman
And a mindset. Yeah, definitely.
28:17
Hana Jacover
And I think some, you know, some orgs are still. They're fearful. And we have to find a way to push. Push fear aside, because that is usually what's holding us back most of the time is our fear. And we either have to push it aside or we have to shift our mindset and look at it as fuel. You know, this is fearful. This makes me nervous. That's good, because that means I'm growing, and that means I'm learning, and that means I'm evolving. And if all leaders could do that, oh, my gosh, like, the lack of trust that they feel for their employees, where they're nervous about them saying something, you know, they're nervous about hiring the wrong people. If we let go a little bit more of that fear, I think that we would find that it's okay to not control the narrative. It's okay to hand over the keys and let people, you know, be themselves. And it's quite amazing when we see that happen, when we see leaders say, I trust you, I trust you. Here are the keys, and I'm on board. And I know that what's in here aligns with what we're trying to do out here. So you go for it. And I think, too, like, we're seeing this generational shift in New leaders, younger leaders that are kind of have grown up in this, like, very traditional, boring B2B space, and they're wanting to.
29:39
Shanie Zimerman
They've absorbed.
29:41
Hana Jacover
We've learned. And I say we because I'm part of that generation. And now they're kind of saying, okay, we've learned all of this. I also ag myself. And then they're saying, okay, we have all of these great learnings. We've. We've, you know, gotten some. Some experience under our feet, and now we want to do it a different way. Now we want to kind of shift it. And, like, still, yes, we like those goals, we like those objectives, but we're going to shift it. We're going to do it differently. Like, our approach. Approach is going to be different because we're human. And we have this aha moment where it's like, wait, we can be ourselves. We can talk normally and not feel stifled. Like, we have to be in this very professional setting. Like, that could mean. I think we're redefining what that means. And so I think a lot more leaders are willing to take on the responsibility and create these environments. And think of it, you know, I think of it as a mind shift. Like, it's really that mind shift that we're working toward.
30:41
Colin Day
I think some of us might as
30:42
Shanie Zimerman
well encourage us to be human until, you know, until the robots take over. We might as well be ourselves.
30:50
Colin Day
Don't say, hey, Alexa. Right. Or, hey, Siri. There you go. If I set everything, oh, look, I've just set mine off. Whoops. But, Hannah, like, you know, some of that fear, right. Like, you know, certainly comes out in more regulated industries, right? Financial services or, you know, the legal profession, for example. I think they're some of the more laggards, should we say, in some regards, right. In adopting or empowering their employees to have that voice and recognize that their employees do have that voice out in the marketplace and the power that that can bring back to the brand. Right. I think you're seeing certainly the last 12, 14 months, right. You've seen, like, a bit of a seed change in even those regulated organizations. Because I think they've had to. Right. They've had to innovate. They've had to adopt. Right. Is that what you're seeing?
31:51
Hana Jacover
Yeah, I agree. In the sense that we're seeing this change within regulated industries. Because that's an excuse, right. To say, oh, our industry won't allow it. Nobody will have this. It's not true. That's just what they want us to believe. And it hasn't been done yet. It hasn't been done. And we're starting to see people do it differently. We're starting to see it. And I like to use B2C as kind of an indicator of where this is moving. I mentioned this might offend some people. I mean it in the best way. But I mentioned on our previously, B2C's trash is B2B's treasure. And I say that very fondly because we tend to follow the trends of B2C and we pick up stuff that's, like, tired. Like, B2C is like, I'm done with this. It worked or it didn't, but I'm done with this. And B2B is like, oh, hey, that looks interesting. Like, we should try that and adjust it for our industry and our messaging. So we just kind of follow B2C. And I always like to look to that industry to see what they're doing, because I do feel we're. We're getting more authenticity. We're getting more real brand voice from B2C and we're starting to move towards that. And I think some of these regulated industries, like looking at B2C, like, think about insurance. Think about the way that all of these insurance companies like, so boring insurance and pretty regulated as well, and such small competition. If you think about kind of like the big brand names, and it's amazing how creative they're being. It's amazing how they're bringing to life this brand that if you were to watch a commercial, you know that it's about insurance, but you're like, but it's hilarious. And I like that. And now I remember. And it feels like they're bringing more to the table, not just, like, the facts about insurance. And I think another great example would be like a company like Ben and Jerry's where ice cream, like, how random. And just, there's tons of. Lots of competition in ice cream and frozen treats and goods. But they are. They do have the best ice cream, I will say, but the best. But they also have the best voice.
34:06
Shanie Zimerman
Now I want Ben and Jerry.
34:07
Hana Jacover
I know. I'm sorry. That was really. That was really mean of you to bring.
34:11
Colin Day
You've done that to a pregnant lady. It's like, now, now.
34:14
Hana Jacover
Oh, gosh.
34:15
Shanie Zimerman
Sorry. I was going to cut this short, you guys.
34:17
Colin Day
Good.
34:17
Shanie Zimerman
I'm just going to.
34:21
Hana Jacover
But, yeah, I know ice cream is not a regulated industry, but it's, you know, it's not very exciting. And then you see Ben and Jerry's on Instagram talking about the things that they want to talk about the things that they care about. They care about making really good ice cream and creating a better world. And so those are the things that they talk about. And it's quite amazing to see.
34:43
Shanie Zimerman
It's not just what they talk about. It's what they name their products after also. It's really putting the, you know, walking the walk. Is that what it is?
34:55
Hana Jacover
You know, I like to say, yeah, drink. Drink your own champagne.
34:59
Shanie Zimerman
Yeah. Drink your own Kool Aid. No.
35:04
Hana Jacover
Eat your own dog food. I don't like that one. But people use that one.
35:08
Shanie Zimerman
But you know what I mean? Like, that's what they're. They're putting their actions into motion and it works for them because it's authentic. Yeah.
35:17
Hana Jacover
And even in, like, again, like, back to another regulated industry thinking about, like, politics, like, we're for good or for bad. Like, we do see these personalities come out and you think, like, oh, it's so, you know, so boring. Like, politics are so boring. It's really not, though, because people are really, really bringing. Even though they're responsible for making decisions for an entire country. Like, talk about power.
35:44
Shanie Zimerman
Right?
35:45
Hana Jacover
You still see these opinions and personalities. And, you know, it's very interesting to watch from that perspective of that being a very regulated space.
35:57
Shanie Zimerman
Yeah. They're becoming brands in and of them themselves. So the. I just want to be conscious of the time here, and I. And I wanted. We spoke a lot about the internal. So how we can be authentic internally and how we can have that trickle effect from leadership down to, you know, down to the employees and encourage employees to really be themselves. And how. How does this then affect the customer? And how can we take that customer first approach to, you know, we trickle it down in the organization. And now it can't just stay in the organization. We need to put that word out there and make sure that that authentic message is being delivered. Mm.
36:40
Hana Jacover
Yeah. And I think too, these days, more and more, like, the BS radar is, like, off the chart. Like, people are like. Like, I can tell that this is not legit. I can tell that this is, like, not your voice or you were put up to this, you know?
36:59
Shanie Zimerman
Yeah.
36:59
Hana Jacover
So I think it's. It really goes back to the relationship discussion around and the trust discussion. And how do we build those relationships with our customers? Because when we build those relationships, we open ourselves up and we're a little bit more vulnerable and we're encouraging them to be a little bit more vulnerable. And when you are in that space, you receive feedback that is so incredibly valuable and it's real feedback. It's not like, oh yeah, it was great. These very surface level things. When you have that relationship where that you've built with customers and you're engaging with them to get that kind of feedback, I think that's really the way that then you can understand, okay, am I meeting these current needs? Is the way that we're expressing what we do, meeting these current needs, if not, why? And let's adjust from there and really kind of letting customers drive that conversation. I mean it's so powerful just to ask a customer, like, how does you know in our case, how does Madcudu make your life easier? Like what are the things that we are doing to make your life easier? Most people want money and they want time. So with that in mind, you can kind of say, okay, you know, that's a spectrum, right? Money for what? Time for what. It's usually one of those things. And when you just sort of hand over or let them lead that conversation and ask those questions, you can get some really solid answers. And I think some of the best marketers are even using those words, words in their campaigns. They're using their customers words and they're saying this is exactly what they said and these are some of our best customers. So we're just going to put that out there and allow others to absorb it as well.
38:47
Shanie Zimerman
Definitely.
38:48
Hana Jacover
And I also think it's really too about like a consultative approach to building those relationships. Like, you know, if you're selling software, if you're selling technology, it's not like you're just swipe the credit card and see you later. And maybe this is just coming from like my agency background where building relationships was so critical, but you really have to be along that journey with them. And we need software orgs to have more of a consultative approach. Not just at the sell and not just at the sale, but all the way through the journey. And that means really powerful customer success teams.
39:27
Shanie Zimerman
Yeah, we know that here. I think firsthand, the more powerful the success team team, the more not only sticky the product, but the more feedback and the more open to feedback the organization is. You know, I think it filters through and it starts at that trust level. The customer success team here, you know, they're our first line, right? They're the, they're the first responders at Octopos. They're the ones that are constantly in touch with the customers. They're the first to hear about anything positive and anything negative. And it's their responsibility to have the knowledge and the communications, the Words to be able to deliver, you know, not be defensive and not say, well, you're doing it wrong. You can't say you're doing it wrong. It could just be a different approach and it could just be something that we hadn't thought of. So being really perceptive to any and all feedback from your customers and then sharing that again with like the entire organization so that everyone is on that same page, from the CEO down to the account executives who need to know about any type of, again, any feedback, positive and negative, to be able to share with their prospects moving forward and to be able to have that information and armed knowledge to respond back. Sorry, that was a long winded sentence,
40:55
Colin Day
what you basically said there, right? Shani, is there the orchestrators of that customer experience? That's the way of summing that one up, right?
41:04
Shanie Zimerman
Exactly.
41:05
Hana Jacover
And I think too, we'll see. And something we're doing at Madcudu as well is we have such an alignment not just between sales and marketing, because that we know is important, but also between customer success, also between product. Like we really need to all be aligned. It's not just about top of the funnel anymore. We know that. So that means that there are all these other different teams, not just sales, not just marketing ops, but also customer success and product. We have to make time and give energy to be in alignment and work on campaigns together. And we find that to be so valuable because you're getting so much on the marketing side that you can then leverage to build a new audience or bring more individuals in. And you're also connecting with your teams. You're collaborating with your teams and you're getting in front of your customers so you're able to really use, understand why they use you, why they buy your product, why they buy your service, which I think is critical to then taking that and saying, okay, these are the facts. And now we get to infuse it with all of these fun, creative things and that's when you can deliver out a really authentic message.
42:23
Colin Day
Oh, my goodness. Hannah, you just talked about an integrated campaign strategy.
42:28
Shanie Zimerman
Hallelujah. Which brings us into our next webinar, which is
42:35
Hana Jacover
perfect segue.
42:40
Shanie Zimerman
I think the bottom line is that the team that we all think we're a part of is actually the wider organization. And it has to do with the internal comms to get that message out to the external prospects and customers and, and a social audience and really anyone. And we need to stop thinking of our team as just this marketing team and customer success team and account executive team. We're all in it together. And we're all. You know, we all have that one single purpose, hopefully, which is success company wide. So there's no reason why we wouldn't all be on that same team to encourage each other and to promote that authentic. That authenticity and that authentic approach to get that message across. How'd I wrap that up?
43:26
Hana Jacover
Perfect. 10 out of 10. Only thing that would have made it better is some Ben and Jerry's.
43:33
Shanie Zimerman
Oh, my God.
43:35
Colin Day
Or if you'd gone into Liberty.
43:38
Shanie Zimerman
Not yet. We have a little bit more baking time to go, but I. And I didn't mean to cut anyone off and really kind of wrap this up. I being conscious of time, though. Did the two of you have anything else that you wanted to add into this that maybe we. I didn't give you a chance to say because I was thinking about Ben and Jerry's or. I mean, I think that this was incredibly, incredibly helpful. I think just a good conversation to reiterate to the audience and to keep encouraging. I think everybody needs to be having a conversation like this, you know, every quarter at the very least, to just keep it top of mind, you know, and just keep it real. Really.
44:24
Colin Day
Keep it real. I think that's the parting words. Keep it real. Consistency, credibility, equity, and symbolism. That's me wrapped up.
44:35
Shanie Zimerman
Where's the mic drop? Yeah, yeah.
44:39
Hana Jacover
No, this was such a great discussion. And again, I thank you. You for having me on. And I'm excited. I think that there are.
44:48
Shanie Zimerman
I think that there is a bright
44:49
Hana Jacover
future ahead for new leaders and leaders, existing leaders who are wanting to adapt and evolve. Yes. And I think that this art industry is going to see some exciting changes that allow people to kind of drop the BS and just be real humans and enjoy each other and learn from each other and evolve together.
45:17
Shanie Zimerman
Absolutely. Well, this was fantastic. We have a couple of questions, if we can get to them. I know some people have already dropped off, but with the recording being sent out, I do want to make sure that we have a couple of questions answered. So the first one is, is there any risk to being overly often?
45:38
Hana Jacover
Hmm, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think there's always risk to being authentic because you are putting yourself out there in a way that you might have not done before and that people are not willing to receive. So I absolutely think there's a risk to being any level of authentic or authenticity, you know, bringing authenticity in. So, yeah, I do believe that there is. And I also believe that with risk comes fear. And fear is such a driver of Stamping out our authenticity. It's a full circle. So I think that we then have to understand, like it's that mind shift about fear. Like, what is fear? Why do we associate fear with all of these negative things? And how can we then use that fear to propel us forward? So instead of saying, am I being too authentic? Is this going to be my downfall? Ask why am I scared? Why is this fear about being too authentic, like, in my head, like, how can I change that? How can I use it to not care about the repercussions that may come? And that happens? It really does. And I think we just have to really collectively understand as a whole how we can shift the power to people who are living in this truth. Because if you have the power and you're not authentic, you're going to just stifle others that are trying to be authentic.
47:08
Shanie Zimerman
There's a risk both ways. You can either risk being your true self or risk having that light dim on you. And I think there's room also for, I always say this trial and error, right? See what works. And see what works not only for you, but for everyone. You don't need to turn off that light completely. You don't need to dim it. But maybe there's just a different way to get it out there. Yeah.
47:35
Hana Jacover
And I will say too, just because it's something that I'm passionate about and I think it's very, very important that we address it. Is that again, and I said this earlier, for underrepresented groups, if you're black, if you are brown, there is kind of a myth of bringing your full self to work. And sometimes you don't even know who that is because you've been internalized it, you've compartmentalized it. You've gone through so many experiences that have told you that you don't belong as you are. So I believe that there is a huge disadvantage to telling a black or a brown employee to bring their full self to work, especially if you're not, as a leader, taking on more of that risk. I want to recommend a TED Talk. Jodi Ann Bury has a really amazing TED Talk, and this is kind of the thing that she talks about. And it's the myth of bringing your full self to work. Highly recommend giving it a listen as it will give a different perspective for those in underrepresented groups and black and brown folks at different organizations.
48:36
Shanie Zimerman
Great. That's a good shout out. Thank you, Hannah. The next question is how can I best approach authenticity in a more old school Environment.
48:47
Hana Jacover
Le. In all seriousness, though, I would find an ally. I would find somebody that you can have as a mentor that can help you understand the complexities of that traditional organization and really have somebody that can speak for you and to kind of like enable the leaders to break it down. You know, whether that's through training, whether that's through restructuring. But at the end of the day, if you are not fully supported, if you are not at a place where you can feel like, I feel good about coming to work, I feel good about what I'm doing, it might not be the best place for you. And that's okay. It's okay. And those that support you, if you've built your network, if you've built relationships, you will find somewhere, and those individuals will help you get to your fullest potential.
49:54
Colin Day
Shani, just a quick one. Katie Jenkins just put into.
49:58
Shanie Zimerman
Yeah, I saw that you answered that.
50:00
Colin Day
Just to let everyone know, like the TED talk that Hannah was talking about, I've just put the link to it in the.
50:05
Shanie Zimerman
In the response that's in the Q and A. I'll just go ahead and drop that into the chat. Also for everyone to have access to, too.
50:17
Colin Day
Giving it to one person, wasn't it
50:20
Shanie Zimerman
so rude? Colin, last question, which I think has a little. Maybe not. I'll. Maybe not, but how do I get leadership on board with this approach?
50:32
Hana Jacover
Yeah, that's a good question, too, I think. Yeah. I think, again, it really is finding, like, who is your person, who is your person at work that is going to champion this if it can't be you? Because oftentimes individual contributors are feeling this pain more than anyone on the leadership team. So who is that person that can help champion this? And what kind of resources do we need to educate to help kind of make this mind shift happen? So I think, again, it goes back to finding your person and then finding the resources that. And presenting those resources in a way that will be heard. Right. So, again, it's all about marketing and understanding your audience. Like, you have to understand, okay, what are the goals of this person who's not doing what I want them to do? Can we align on these goals? And if we can, that's great. That means that's an open door and we can move forward. If we can't align on those goals, you might need to bring in a third party. You might need to kind of elevate that conversation in a way that. That you're not doing a lot of the heavy lifting, because I don't feel that's fair for Individual contributors.
51:44
Shanie Zimerman
Yeah.
51:45
Colin Day
Hannah, you mentioned champions there, right? I'd also flip in the word advocates, right? In so much as who's going to advocate for you. And it may not be senior leadership, right? It may not be like the senior leadership team. It may need to come bottom or middle up rather than, than top down. But I think, you know, those resources that you talk about, to me, it's about we need to be able to demonstrate or talk to the value, right? Like, you know, what value is this going to bring? Like, you know, and why? And again, that then comes back to the art of storytelling, right? It's like we need to be able to tell the story and what I've, what I've done in, you know, in my former employers when, you know, when, when I've been trying to bring these types of initiatives to the organization. Yeah, it's really been look external to the organization, right? Look at what good looks like or find what you believe good looks like, right? And find that in a peer organization and then bring that back, right? And say, look, we're talking about, you know, going in this direction, do it, doing this, right? Like here's an organization that's already done it and look, look at the impact that's having, right? Do we want to be like these individuals or this organization when we grow up? If we do, then guess what, we've got to take this journey and go
53:11
Hana Jacover
through these steps and you can use that when you make, you know, you have to make your case, right? You really have to say, how is this going to benefit the company using those examples and showcasing, you know, again, like, is it time or is it money? Because it's going to be one of those two things and show your leadership or show the team. Like if we do this, here's how we can achieve our goals more quickly and effectively and more authentically. And so if you kind of relate it back to those top level goals of the organization, you'll definitely find a path to get there.
53:49
Shanie Zimerman
This has been. Well, first of all, I'm very happy that I was able to wrap up the series, my series with this conversation. It's again, just a topic that's very near and dear to me especially, especially in the past year where we've been all affected by global pandemics and causes and changes happening right before our eyes. And I think being able to be yourself and not try to hide away from how this world is affecting us in the workplace, it's been really enlightening. Just hearing a little bit more from you, Hannah, and I know that this is also something that's very near and dear to you and it's something that you advocate for both internally and externally from Madcudu. So thank you so much for joining us on this webinar today and helping me wrap up this series. This was a fantastic conversation. I've not doubt that the audience found this, if not just encouraging to what they already know, then brand new information.
55:01
Hana Jacover
Thank you.
55:03
Shanie Zimerman
Luckily, nobody has to memorize anything that we spoke about today because you're going to get the recording and you're going to get the deck and you can reflect back on this. And if you have any questions at all, you can reach out to any one of us. Our emails are here and we would love to hear from you. So thank you both again so much for carving out this time today to chat and hopefully we'll speak soon.
55:29
Colin Day
Shani, on behalf of all of the audience that have listened to you over the last 15 months at the actually 16 months because this is number 16. Right. On behalf of all of the audience, thank you for being a great host and good luck with with what happens over the coming weeks. That is the baby, the big reveal
55:53
Hana Jacover
and get some Ben and Jerry's.
55:56
Shanie Zimerman
I'm running. I am already out the door getting Ben and Jerry.
56:01
Hana Jacover
Thank you so much. This was wonderful.
56:03
Shanie Zimerman
Thank you both. Have a great rest of the day. Thank you everybody for joining as well. Take care.
56:09
Colin Day
Bye bye.
56:10
Shanie Zimerman
Bye.
